July 3, 2010
Thanks for the discussion, but you should read what I say more carefully. See my comments below.
Buy Robert, my friend, God is not obligated to save anyone at all. He does out of his mercy and for his glory.
RS: I never said he was. I said that to be fair and just God gives everyone the same opportunity to be saved.
You are making things up to fit your theology, not going my the Scriptures. The wages of sin is death. All sin and fall short of the glory of God. Therefore, the man in the jungle has sinned and is under a death sentence, unless regenerated.
RS: I never said he wasn't under a death sentence. I said he could be saved just like everyone else if he does what God requires.
Looking at nature is enough to show there is a God that created everything, but general revelation is not enough to save. You can't look at the stars or the trees and come up with the gospel. Nature doesn't tell you that Christ died for your sins, was buried, and raised on the third day. Rather basic stuff.
There are no scriptures whatsoever that say that person that has never heard the gospel can be saved by general revelation. We are not to question God, as Paul stated in Romans. Who in the heck are we to judge God?
RS: According to Paul, you don't need explicit knowledge of Christ to be saved, per his argument in Romans 2:13-15. All one needs is an Atonement provided by Christ, outside of which no one can be saved.
If God put a person in the jungle out of touch with civilization, my guess is he knows what he is doing, and like Acts 17:26 states, he determines when we are born, to what set of parents, and where we will be born.
RS: Putting a person in the jungle has nothing to do with whether he can be saved or not. You are mixing apples and oranges. Paul was merely trying to tell the Athenians that the real God knows and does everything, and they don't need to worship their multitudinous false gods.
Look at the OT. God chose Israel, but let the gentile nations go their condemned way. Was the "unfair" of God? Of course not.
RS: Not really. Romans 2:13-15 says the Gentiles could be saved with the knowledge and conscience they had. By the same token, Paul says that only a remnant of Jews were saved in Israel (Rom 11:5). God was fair to both.
I am correct on all points, and you are incorrect. There are no scriptures that say you can be saved without faith in Christ.
RS: But those Scripture are concerned only with people who actually hear about Christ. Obviously, if they hear about Christ and reject him, then cannot be saved. We are talking about those who don't hear about Christ. Paul is clear that they too can be saved.
According to Augustine, the transmission of Adam's sin was immediate, not mediate. As you know, Romans 5 is clear on that.
RS: Has nothing to do with what we are talking about, since I never said the Amazon was not under condemnation for sin.
You are saying that a person can be saved without Christ,
RS: Nope, never said that. All that are saved are saved by Christ's atonement. There is no other name under heaven by which men are saved.
without any knowledge of the gospel,
RS: Paul says God wrote his laws on their heart (Romans 2:14-15) and by their works they will be justified or condemned (Romans 2:9-13). When the Gospel proper comes with the advent of Jesus Christ, men now have much more of responsibility to repent and do the work of God than those they didn't have the Gospel proper preached to them, but all of them can be saved with what God gave them.
and without being regenerated. Prove it by scripture.
RS: Don't need to prove it by Scripture, since I never said it.
Now, my friend, I know you are a busy fellow and don't have time to argue with me.
RS: I'm in this for the truth, Don. It doesn't matter with whom I argue the points to get to the truth.
I took your bible study because I want the Catholic, Arminian view from the best. And you are the best Catholic Theologian/Apologists in the country, if not the world. So I take your comments seriously and I will continue the study.
RS: Thanks for the compliment! But if you want to take my comments "seriously," then try not to 'read into' them.
If you go by Scripture, I am right and you are wrong on this. This guy in the jungle being saved by general revelation is about as bad as Paragraph 841 that the demonic, false, pagan, violent, bloodthirsty, lunatics and morons that go by the pagan religion of Islam, worship the same God we do. Wrong! They worship a pagan, unknown, and unknowable God. Be worship a Triune God.
RS: You're mixing apples and oranges again. General revelation doesn't save anyone. Christ saves, period. General revelation (Romans 1:18-20) and the conscience and laws written on his heart (Romans 2:14-15) can be used of God to bring him to repentance and justification (Romans 2:4-13), but all is done by, with and through Christ. If that is not true, then I suggest you delete Romans 1 & 2 from your Bible, since you are not paying attention to what Paul says there.
I will try and restrain myself with my comments and enjoy the bible study.
I wish you, your family and your 34 kids a fantastic day.
RS: Wrong again. I have 10 kids! God be with you, Don.
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